By the Numbers: A Look at National Seashore Visitation Stats Over the Past Year - Shooting The Breeze

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2018 Election Season … | Home | Shelly Island Sandbar…

By the Numbers: A Look at National Seashore Visitation Stats Over the Past Year

Saturday 03 March 2018 at 12:11 am.

By JOY CRIST

On Thursday, March 1, Cape Hatteras National Seashore Superintendent David Hallac gave a presentation to community members at the Fessenden Center on visitation patterns in the past year.

And while it’s a well-known fact that 28% of statistics are made up, there were plenty of surprises and numbers that stood out in the overview of the 2017 season.

The meeting was lightly attended, likely due to the impending storm that rolled in with the arrival of the weekend, and which is currently creating a big salty lake in our yard even as I type this.

So for folks who could not attend in person, here’s a look at how the past year stacked up in multiple arenas of the Cape Hatteras National Seashore, and what these numbers could mean going forward.

Visitation

There were a total of 3.12 million visits in 2017 at the Cape Hatteras National Seashore (CHNS), the Fort Raleigh Historic Site, and the Wright Brothers National Memorial.

CHNS visitation was up 1% in 2017 over 2016, with roughly 2.5 million visitors.

There were 65,000 overnight camping stays in the four campgrounds within the National Seashore.

Seashore Closures

In 2017, 27.2 miles of the 29 miles of ORV routes were open during the summer months - (May through September.) This marks a steady trend that’s been climbing over the years:

• 2017: 27.2 miles open
• 2016: 25.6 miles open
• 2015: 22.2 miles open
• 2014: 19.8 miles open
• 2013: 17.7 miles open

ORV Permits

39,181 permits were sold in 2017, which was the most ORV permits sold to date. This number has been climbing over the past few years too:

• 2017: 39,181 ORV permits sold
• 2016: 36,868 ORV permits sold
• 2015: 34,596 ORV permits sold
• 2014: 30,453 ORV permits sold
• 2013: 30,955 ORV permits sold
• 2012: 27,154 ORV permits sold

Weather

2017 was a warmer than normal year over a 30-year period, and had an average amount of rainfall. Maximum temperatures were an average of 2-3 degrees warmer throughout the year over 2016.

Budget and Fees

The National Park Service operated on a $14.6 million dollar budget for 2017. Here’s where those funds came from:

• $9.6M base funding
• $2.7M off-road vehicle permits
• $2.3M camping and lighthouse fees
• $250,000 in other donations and fees

Summary of 2015 – 2017 Projects

The presentation also highlighted projects conducted within the Cape Hatteras National Seashore since 2015. These projects and changes included:

• Modified wildlife protection buffers
• Built ORV Ramps 25, 32, 48, and 63
• 4-mile long Inside road in between ramps 44 and 49
• Raised Ramps 49, 44, and 4
• Constructed Cape Point Bypass Road
• Earlier morning beach openings (i.e., from 7 a.m. to 6 a.m.)
• Four weeks of additional ORV access in front of villages
• 3.5 miles of additional ORV routes - (29 during summer and 44.5 during fall, winter, and spring)
• 7-day permit extended to a 10-day permit
• Annual permit that is valid for 12 months from date of purchase
• Print at home permit system

Interesting Stats from all this Info

These numbers can get a little jumbled up when put together, to be sure. So here are some of the most notable stats to arise from the presentation.

• 2017 saw the highest visitation to the Cape Hatteras National Seashore since 2003. This number has been gradually rising since 2014.
• 2017 saw the highest visitation to the Cape Hatteras National Seashore in the month of November since 1998, with more than 140,000 visitors during the month. Though the exact cause of the uptick isn’t crystal clear, it’s likely due to great weather and really great fishing that was reported throughout the month.
• Conversely, ferry crossings continues to remain low with a little more than 300,000 passengers reported for 2017. This follows a trend that began in 2011, and which may be due to reduced crossings and a longer ride. To compare, in the late 1990s and early 2000s, the annual passengers were well over 450,000, which marks a roughly 40% drop.
• To perhaps no one’s surprise, visitation took a hit during the week-long summertime power outage. As an example, the Cape Hatteras Lighthouse parking lot reported more than 1,000 vehicles on July 25, 2017, and approximately 100 vehicles on August 1.
• 94% of ORV routes were open during the summer of 2017. (Good thing, too, since 2017 also saw the highest number of ORV permits sold to date.)

What do these numbers mean?

Clearly, there is an increase in visitation across the board, as well as more beach access, which is a nice combination.

It’s hard to identify the exact reasons for this uptick, but there are certainly a few contributing factors to consider.

For one thing, the warmer weather kept visitors around late into the fall, (hence the record breaking November visitation), and big stories like the appearance of “Shelly Island” drew in crowds as well – a fact that David Hallac pointed out at the presentation. “If you go to social media, you’ll see that some [new visitors] refer to Cape Point as Shelly Point now,” he said.

The notable exception to the upward trend is the number of folks taking the Hatteras / Ocracoke ferry, but it will be interesting to see if the summer arrival of the new passenger ferry changes these numbers in 2018.

All in all, though, the 2017 overview is brimming with good news, (which is certainly appreciated during this windy, flood-y weekend.)

Beach access was up, visitation was up, and these numbers climbed despite setbacks like the power outage and September’s series of hurricanes.

With more NPS projects in the works, (like the new South Beach parking lot), and the allure of the beach and our landmarks still strong, (like the lighthouse and the recently coined “Shelly Point”), there’s reason to hope that - though it’s early - 2018 will bring along good news as well.

88 comments

pussycat

This is a very interesting by the numbers look at CHNS. As stated in the article, there are 2.5 million visitors to our beloved national seashore. Of those 2.5 million visitors, only 39000 are registered drivers who have purchased ORV permits. Once you factor in ORV passengers into the equation only about two percent of seashore visitors utilize ORVs on the beach. The odd thing is that this two percent of visitorship has use of over 40 percent of the beach as their offroading track. This inequality must be corrected…by the numbers.

pussycat - 03-03-’18 19:10
Dewey Parr

Thanks for sharing the information supplied at the meeting with the Superintendent. I know it is wishful thinking on my part, but I still wish that we would have more access in the Buxton area to South Beach. I can not see any logical reason for keeping so much of South Beach closed.

Dewey Parr - 03-03-’18 20:28
Al Adam

It’s a wonderful thing that the ORV permit monies from such a small per cent of visitors has paid for so many improvements that all visitors can enjoy.
KUDOS to the permit purchasers and to the NPS administration and staff for using those funds to provide access and protection, proving that reasonable balance is obtainable.

Al Adam - 05-03-’18 00:16
Bud

South Beach is a locals area. Once access is made too easy the spot will be no longer pleasant.

Bud - 05-03-’18 14:00
Devildog

BIG thanks to the NPS and Supt. Hallac for making these long-needed improvements for the ORV user group!

• Modified wildlife protection buffers
• Built ORV Ramps 25, 32, 48, and 63
• 4-mile long Inside road in between ramps 44 and 49
• Raised Ramps 49, 44, and 4
• Constructed Cape Point Bypass Road
• Earlier morning beach openings (i.e., from 7 a.m. to 6 a.m.)
• Four weeks of additional ORV access in front of villages
• 3.5 miles of additional ORV routes – (29 during summer and 44.5 during fall, winter, and spring)
• 7-day permit extended to a 10-day permit
• Annual permit that is valid for 12 months from date of purchase
• Print at home permit system

It’s about time the NPS/DOI realized their gross overreach from 2012 and made things right again.

Keep up the good work!

Devildog - 06-03-’18 21:32
pussycat

Devildodo,
I’m am going to predict your response before it is posted. You will try to counter the two percent using up to 40 percent of the beach as a false statement. To prove this, you will deflect rhetorically but provide no numbers to back up your fact challenged response regarding two percent using 40 percent of our seashore as an offroading track.
You’ll spin to other things and might include unrelated quotes and sidetracked numbers about other things than the two percent driving on the up to 40 percent. Watch and learn, folks.

pussycat - 07-03-’18 00:16
pussycat

bingo

pussycat - 07-03-’18 04:21
Devildog

Billfish,

The ratio you endlessly tout, while correct, only matters in the fever-swamp between your ears.

You can continue to whine all you want, but you’ll never get the punitive outcome that you desire. Repeat: Never. The NPS won’t slay that cash cow now that it’s such a large part of its budget. Anyone with a firm grasp of reality can plainly see that.

Thanks to the NPS and DOI for supporting the ORV user group through continued ORV-based improvements, and for brining common sense back to our National Recreation Area!

Devildog - 07-03-’18 18:38
pussycat

Devildodo,
Now that you finally admit that my numbers are correct after much criticizing, cajoling, gaslighting and name calling, you now spin to the fact that the two percent of ORV drivers and passengers are safe in controlling up to 40 percent of the beach because they have successfully
“bought” their way into victory. We actually are starting to think alike, at least until Zinke the offshore drilling shill is escorted out of office with
some new additions including Gary Cohn, Jared Kushner, Ivanka Trump
and General Kelly.Next thing you know is that you’ll finally agree that the Trump administration is nothing but an opportunist group of thugs and that the market is in the largest bubble in history, which has just been pricked. The all time high was around 2800. I believe the bottom will be conservatively 65 percent lower and possibly up to 80 percent. Additionally, it will be difficult to drive on the beach when ORV ownership rapidly becomes a thing of the past as everyone switches to transportation as a service utility via self driving electric vehicles.
And finally, I’m looking forward to March 24th when a new generation of bright and motivated future leaders put an end to these crazy gun nuts and their make believe “freedom” militias. Just like the dodo birds, these nut jobs are heading for rapid extinction.

pussycat - 07-03-’18 20:13
pussycat

Devildodo,
I predicted Stormy would go ballistic because she was underbribed by Trump compared to Trump’s payoff to the playmate of the year. Now Stomy is suing…and she has pictures! Bunga bunga. Will Mueller interview Stormy? I sure hope so.

pussycat - 08-03-’18 01:37
Devildog

Billfish,

Let’s stick to your ORV Derangement Syndrome on these pages, shall we? Joy and Donna have been kind and patient with our B&F’s, but let’s not wear that welcome out.

If you wish to continue delving into your Trump Derangement Syndrome, meet me at this website:

https://outerbanks.craigslist.org/search/rnr

It’s not moderated, and you are guaranteed to be completely anonymous. What say you? Man or mouse?

Back on topic, ORV’s are here to stay, as your electric self-driving car fantasy for the unwashed masses is decades away, and your 2%/40% numbers, while correct, mean nothing outside of the fever swamp between your ears.

Devildog - 08-03-’18 16:04
Bo Wallis

Pedestrians are allowed to use 100% of the beach for $0.00. ORVs only 40% for $120.00 per year. This inequality must be corrected!

Bo Wallis - 09-03-’18 01:20
hatrasfevr

Visitation

There were a total of 3.12 million visits in 2017 at the Cape Hatteras National Seashore (CHNS), the Fort Raleigh Historic Site, and the Wright Brothers National Memorial.

Fort Raleigh and the Wright Brothers visitation are determined by ticket sales. What part of the 3.12 million visitors is just the Seashore… and how is the information collected?

If 2% generates $2.7M from the sale of off-road vehicle permits imagine what a fee for pedestrians use of the beaches could generate!

hatrasfevr - 09-03-’18 22:41
Hondo

What the heck does Trump have to do with beach access?

Hondo - 14-03-’18 01:11
Devildog

What the heck does Trump have to do with beach access?

Exactly, Hondo. Billfish/Pussycat can’t seem to get that off his brain for even a moment.

I’ve offered him another local venue for taking that topic up at length, but he refuses to do so for reasons known only to him.

More of the same ol’ TDS in 3…. 2….

Devildog - 14-03-’18 17:41
pussycat

Well, at least I’m glad that everyone now realizes that two percent of visitorship to CHNS Hatteras Island have bought their way into controlling up to 40 percent of the beach. I hope that everyone now remembers how badly this two percent acted, from calling our rangers jack booted nazis, placing FU signs next to elementary schools, threatening those with other opinions, asking businesses to not serve park service employees, promoting boycotts of HI, placing obscene signage of their vehicles and most ridiculous of all, equating freedom and liberty in a world where people are dying for these rights to the right to drive on the beach. It is time for someone to finally blow the whistle on your outrageous and audacious bullying. Since you two percenters acted like entitled jerks, you will now be treated the same way. We will never forget and never forgive. Get used to it. #Resist, #March for our Lives on March 24th in Nags Head.

pussycat - 14-03-’18 18:53
pussycat

March for our Lives
March 24th
Nags Head, NC
158 Bypass and Bonnet Street
1:00 PM

The kids are speaking out. Listen up. It’s their world. You just live in it. Get used to it.

pussycat - 14-03-’18 20:37
Salvo Dog

pc, As you know your spouting has nothing to do with NPS stats. Can’t you troll somewhere else? It is a shame children are being used for political purposes. This is a new low. I’m happy that ORV funds are being used for the benefit of all. As someone who is on the beaches several times a week I also have observed the most walkers use the ORV optional ramps. At ramp 25 the majority use the ramp instead of the boardwalk.

Salvo Dog - 16-03-’18 14:42
Devildog

“We will never forget and never forgive. Get used to it. #Resist”

With his statements of late, Billfish has entered the realm of what’s known as “Othering”:

Othering – definition and synonyms
NOUN [UNCOUNTABLE] LINGUISTICS, PSYCHOLOGY

1. Treating people from another group as essentially different from and generally inferior to the group you belong to.
2. A divided society where all problems are blamed on the other side

“Othering” was implemented in a large scale a little less than a century ago in Europe.

The results were not good.

The political left in this country needs to abandon this dangerous rhetoric if we are to move forward as a untied republic.

“It’s their world. You just live in it.”

Billfish needs to be reminded that their rights end where mine begin, and one does not supercede the other as he implies.

As another poster commented, the use of children as political pawns is beyond deplorable.

Devildog - 16-03-’18 16:10
pussycat

Salvo Jimmy,
It wasn’t so long ago that the pro ORV crowd (now called the 2 percenters) used this blog as a spreader of its message (propoganda).
You are one of the most guilty. Now you call me a troll? That is not true but rather just your way to quiet the fact that what was once unknown is now known: just two percent intentionally and consistently rocked our island in a very bad way. As for me using the kids for political purposes, I will just repeat what the kids are saying loud and clear to people like you : BS! They are right. As for the “majority” using what you claim, who cares? The majority are now aware that all the ORV ruckus was nothing more than a few loudmouth-entitled beach drivers acting as the end of the world was upon Hatteras when nothing was further from the truth. Nobody will ever believe your bs anymore, or the bs of the merely self-interested two percenters. Y’all went to far.

pussycat - 16-03-’18 17:03
pussycat

Salvo Jimmy,
Oh, and by the way, the parents, grandparents, neighbors and friends of the killed kids, wounded kids and mentally harmed survivors also say
BS on you for saying that they and their children are political pawns. You are just repeating pure and documented NRA propoganda. The pawn is really you in order to increase gun sales by NRA corporate members and advertisers, and to increase funding by individuals by using scare-oriented politicals messaging, false patriotism and fear. All these gun nuts really succeed in doing is usually shooting their family member or friends. Look it up. #Resist

pussycat - 16-03-’18 19:29
Comcerned

Superintendent Hallac has gotten along better with the local ORV groups than previous superintendents, but at what cost? A likely legacy will be that under his watch breeding American Oyster Catchers will be extricated from CHNS. The rest of the colonial nesting birds didn’t fair so well either. 2016 was a disastrous colonial breeding breed year. It is a fact that this has occurred since the new more liberal ORV rules were implemented. This Park was specially established for future generations as a place to recreate in an area where “unique” plants and animals were protected and preserved. * (“incompatible with the preservation of the unique flora and fauna”).
Also during Hallac’s watch I think the single most disgusting environmental “improvement” was completed, the new ORV interdunal road built to bypass the permanent restricted ORV area between the “Hook and South Beach”. This route penetrates an area known as “Rocky’s Hole”. Anyone who was familiar with this area knows what I am talking about.

One of the major reasons for the newly implemented (lack) ORV regulations was the supposedly negative economic impact that the old NEPA implemented rules had.
There was only biased anecdotal evidence to suggest that this was the case. Now there is data that suggests that the old more environmentally friendly rules were actually economically beneficial.

https://phys.org/news/2018-01-off-road-vehicle-restriction-benefits-outweigh.html
“This study indicates that the ORV restrictions are actually a net benefit for North Carolina,” von Haefen says. “
Read more at: https://phys.org/news/2018-01-off-road-vehicle-restriction-benefits-outweigh.html#jCp

Maybe the park will come to there senses and revisit some of these changes. The Park had the opportunity to implement changes that would not have been so hurtful to breeding birds but choose not to. It is going to mostly be a moot point in any case because access to Hatteras Island and CHNS is going set to be severely curtailed by past and present inept political decisions concerning Highway 12, bridges and access. The birds and wildlife will be doing much better in the near future.

*Cape Hatteras National Seashore was designated by the 75th Congress in 1937. Here is an excerpt of the enabling legislation that covers the reason for establishing this national park.
Except for certain portions of the area, deemed to be especially adaptable for recreational uses, particularly swimming, boating, sailing, fishing, and other recreational activities of similar nature, which shall be developed for such uses as needed, the said area shall be permanently reserved as a primitive wilderness and no development of the project or plan for the convenience of visitors shall be undertaken which would be incompatible with the preservation of the unique flora and fauna or the physiographic conditions now prevailing in this area…

Comcerned - 17-03-’18 16:21
pussycat

Concerned
Excellent post. Most likely, Supt. Hallic was assigned here to quiet things down and mend fences, especially after the ORV legislation was buried in a much-needed defense bill by Senator Joe Manchin after talking with an old friend on Ocracoke. What Senator Manchin, Congress and most of us didn’t realize was how many people really utilize ORVs on the beach. The issuance of permits settles the question once and for all. What is now realized is that just two percent of visitors to Cape Hatteras National Seashore on HI utilize up to forty percent of the beach as their personal off-roading track. These measurements bring into great question if there ever was the need to open more ORV ramps and interior roading through some of the most pristine areas on the island, scarring the landscape, creating sight and sound polution and potentially having a negative effect for the wildlife population, especially the highly skittish oyster catcher during mating season. This same two percent of visitorship was also wrongly credited as being the driving force of HI economics through their and constant barrage of messaging from key individuals of ORV associations. The now measured number of ORV participants on HI proves their economic impact statements are patently false. For some reason, this two percent of visitors feel entitled to spread falsehoods related to our National Seashore. One ORVer even states that since they pay to drive, they have financial control over the National Park Service and its decision making. That sense of entitlement has no place in our national park system. Supt. Hallac needs to encourage a significant rollback of allowed ORV access that is in line with the Seashore’s user base. Remember, 98 percent of the island’s visitors don’t use ORVs, yet the two percent of visitorship—ORV permit holders and passengers—have grabbed control of up to 40 percent of the beach. This must end.

pussycat - 17-03-’18 20:57
Devildog

Comcerned,

A likely legacy will be that under his watch breeding American Oyster Catchers will be extricated from CHNS.

Your “concern” and comments concerning AMOY are completely false, as the NPS data states otherwise:

Table 1. Summary of AMOY Reproductive Success 2010 – 2016.
2010: 23 Pairs, 28 Nests
2011: 23 Pairs, 26 Nests
2012: 22 Pairs, 30 Nests
2013: 27 Pairs, 42 Nests
2014: 26 Pairs, 38 Nests
2015: 25 Pairs, 43 Nests
2016: 26 Pairs, 41 Nests

The NPS data shows the trend is either stable or growing slightly.

https://www.nps.gov/articles/upload/2016-Annual-Reports-FINAL-03-09-2017-508.pdf

One would hope that you’re just terribly misinformed and not intentionally misleading the IFP readership.

”The rest of the colonial nesting birds didn’t fair so well either. 2016 was a disastrous colonial breeding breed year.”

Also a false statement. To Wit:

Historical Comparison

The total number of documented (CWB) nests for all but one species in CAHA increased in 2016 (Figures 1-5).

Productivity

Productivity in unmarked CWB colonies is very difficult to determine. While it is certain multiple colonies fledged chicks, there are no definitive numbers for CWB productivity at CAHA.

Discussion

The 2016 CWB nesting season resulted in greater nest numbers in four of the five species that were documented to nest at CAHA.

(From the same 2016 Annual Report that you apparently haven’t read)

“This study indicates that the ORV restrictions are actually a net benefit for North Carolina,” von Haefen says. “

One study doth not a consensus make, and if you’re in the same “No ORV’s” camp with Billfish, a complete ban on ORV’s would completely devastate the HI economy and cripple the CAHA NPS budget.

Maybe the park will come to there senses and revisit some of these changes. The Park had the opportunity to implement changes that would not have been so hurtful to breeding birds but choose not to.

More falsehoods. The NPS data clearly shows that breeding birds are more negatively affected by weather and predation:

Nest Failures and Chick Mortality Three factors at CAHA are thought to contribute to the loss of nests or chicks on a yearly basis: predator disturbance, abandonment, and weather.

As a matter of fact, pedestrian disturbance is the most prevalent source of human disturbance year in and year out:

Human Disturbance

Human disturbance, direct or indirect, can lead to the abandonment of nests or loss of chicks. Throughout the season, resource management staff documented 181 pedestrian, nine ORV, and 33 dog, boat or horse intrusions in the AMOY nesting closures.

Pedestrian entry most often required visitors to lift or stoop under the string that connected all posted signs, while vehicular entry required visitors to drive through or around a sign boundary.

Only 9 ORV AMOY nest incursions in 2014 compared to 181 pedestrian. That’s 1,911% higher. It appears that you’re barking up the wrong tree as to which user group has a more negative affect on nesting shorebirds.

In closing, the Cape Hatteras National Seashore Recreation Area, (it’s full, legal name since 1940), is jjst that, a recreation area, set aside purposefully for humans to recreate on.

Off Road Vehicle (ORV) use on Hatteras and Ocracoke Islands is not just a form of recreation, but is recognized as a traditional form of beach access. Access to this historic seashore for the purposes of recreation pre-dates not only the inception of the National Park Service, but the nation as well.

Pea Island National Wildlife Refuge is exactly what the name implies, just as Cape Hatteras National Seashore Recreation Area is, and one does not equal the other.

This was all borne out in during the NEPA Negotiated Rulemaking process, and has not and will not change in the foreseeable future.

Devildog - 17-03-’18 21:54
Devildog

Billfish,

That sense of entitlement has no place in our national park system. Supt. Hallac needs to encourage a significant rollback of allowed ORV access that is in line with the Seashore’s user base.

There you go again. You’ve flailed that poor horse carcass down to a pile of bone dust, and where has it gotten you?

Exactly nowhere……

Remember, 98 percent of the island’s visitors don’t use ORVs, yet the two percent of visitorship—ORV permit holders and passengers—have grabbed control of up to 40 percent of the beach. This must end.

Like another poster said, what “must end” is the pedestrian user group paying exactly $0.00 into the CAHA budget, yet are availing themselves completely of all the benefits and improvements that ORV users pay for.

The 181 pedestrian “highly skittish” AMOY nest disturbances versus only 9 ORV in 2014, (1,911% higher!), must be rectified, and having that user group “pay it forward” through entrance fees and having to go through training like ORV users do would go a long way in fixing this scourge against our sensitive species.

If this all about protecting the turtles and birds, your pedestrian user group has a long way to go, baby.

Devildog - 17-03-’18 22:07
pussycat

Devil Dog,
So as an outspoken beach driver, do you represent the two percent in saying that all CHNS visitors must pay an entrance fee to the National Park Service? Or are you saying that beach driving fees should only be used for maintaining and adding to ORV access on CHNS? Either way, it sounds like you are not fully satisfied about present legislation, rules and regulations. I think many of us agree. NPS and Congress needs to revisit the whole issue or make necessay modifications within the legislation to best meet the needs of people visiting CHNS. Over the years, truths and mistruths, errors and good judgements, become clearer. Tomorrow would not be too early for me. Agree?

pussycat - 17-03-’18 23:40
Salvo Jimmy

PC

Excuse me but you have me confused with someone who gives a rats arse about your posts, seeing as how I have not posted on this blog until now..

Salvo Jimmy - 17-03-’18 23:55
pussycat

Devildodo, Remember, beach drivers and passengers are two percent of visitors to CHNS. Your influence and economic benefit compared to many other user groups pale by comparision. Everyone now knows this. I’d even guess there are far, far more than two percent of visitors that are bird and turtle protectionists. Of course your two percent deserve a say, but not 40 percent of the beach as a offroading course. That is totally obscene. No wonder a wildlife lover just became embolded. All the outraged ORV proponents have suddenly changed into just a few little overly selfish and entitled people that falsely captivated our island. And all it took to find the truth was the ability to count. Weird, huh?

pussycat - 18-03-’18 00:35
Salvo Dog

p c, Take a breath and reread. I am Salvo Dog, Not Salvo Jimmy. He is older than me and I’m better looking.

Salvo Dog - 18-03-’18 02:11
Concerned

Devildog

“Pea Island National Wildlife Refuge is exactly what the name implies, just as Cape Hatteras National Seashore Recreation Area is, and one does not equal the other.
This was all borne out in during the NEPA Negotiated Rulemaking process, and has not and will not change in the foreseeable future..”
Devildog – 17-03-’18 21:54

Who said it does? So what? All that the regneg committee decided was that the official name of this Park was Cape Hatteras National Seashore and Recreation Area, and that it is to be treated like any other Seashore. But the ORVers continue to incorrectly insist that it has some special management (ie. an ORV/beachdriving clause). No body but a small group of 2%ers refers to this park other than Cape Hatteras National Seashore.

I’ve been informed of the 2017 preliminary results and would bet you have too. AMOY nesting was horrible in 2017 only a couple of AMOY chicks fledged. Resource management in 2016 was not operating under the new ORV changes. It will be a fact that since the revised regs (outside of NEPA purview) nesting success for AMOY precipitously declined in 2017. If this Park starts loosing unique beach nesting birds that were fledging chicks here before humans arrived, the Park will have failed in its mission, whatever the reasons.

Under pressure from ORV lobbing the predator management program has been abandoned for all practical purposes. For the life of me I can’t understand why anyone who sport fishes with bait specifically for catch and release would have a problem with predator management. The real reason for their opposition to the Park’s predator management program is that the ORVers are interested in increasing predators numbers so as to comprise nesting success for species that cause ORV access restrictions. A good number of them would be delighted if AMOYs and piping plovers never nested here again.

I’m guessing most of the AMOY pedestrian intrusions occurred outside of Buxton in an area where surfers park on Highway 12 and kiteboarders outside of Hatteras Village in areas that is closed year round to ORV use. The closed area outside of Buxton often changes week to week. It is confusing and surfers are notoriously lack about following any rules. In any case the Park should do a better job of educating visitors about nesting resource and closures. These same types and numbers of intrusions have been occurring fairly consistently but what has changed is different management of ORVs in 2017. So far no pedestrians have stomped nesting sea turtles into oblivion the way ORVs have.

It appears you are not so concerned about economics of the local businesses. You propose that pedestrians should be charged to get on the beach and I guess band them anywhere there is a resource enclosure? See how many local businesses jump on that bandwagon. You all are showing your true colors. Go for it.

Neither the Park or the ORV lobby has ever addressed what was the historical norm of traditional ORV use. It certainly wasn’t what it has morphed into today. IIf the beach was as wide as it was in the 1950’s with the same number of vehicles on the beach now as then I would be fine with few ORV regulations, actually I am fine with appropriate ORV use in the Park today. I am guessing my idea of appropriate use differs dramatically from yours. I don’t expect you get my point.

Nobody refers to Cape Hatteras National Seashore as a recreational area except the hard core ORVers (the 2% of the 2%ers). The, “and recreation area”, was specifically added to allow waterfowl hunting within the Park, the only way a National Park could allow waterfowl hunting at that time. It doesn’t make any difference anyway as it is clearly spelled out in the enabling legislation and the Organic Act as to how the Park should be managed. I have my doubts you are misinformed about any of this.

You are flat out wrong if you think the single most important thing for CHNS is to provide ORV access to the 2%ers. (read the enabling legislation.

Concerned - 18-03-’18 16:59
Devildog

So as an outspoken beach driver, do you represent the two percent in saying that all CHNS visitors must pay an entrance fee to the National Park Service?

I only speak for myself, and I am clearly and consistently on record as stating that user fees for all who enter at CAHA are simply a matter of time, which will make this park equal to Yosemite, Grand Canyon, Zion, and even the Blue Ridge parkway.

Or are you saying that beach driving fees should only be used for maintaining and adding to ORV access on CHNS? Either way, it sounds like you are not fully satisfied about present legislation, rules and regulations. I think many of us agree. NPS and Congress needs to revisit the whole issue or make necessay modifications within the legislation to best meet the needs of people visiting CHNS. Over the years, truths and mistruths, errors and good judgements, become clearer. Tomorrow would not be too early for me. Agree?

It’s entertaining how you like to try to put your words in others mouths, but no, the entrance fees for all will come as a separate issue, as the two are mutually exclusive.

The real issue at hand here is just how badly the pedestrian user group needs training WRT sensitive species management, as the 98% commit in excess of 2,000% more of closure violations than ORV’s year in and year out.

If this is all about caring for the critters, then training for all who enter is a must-have.

Devildog - 19-03-’18 16:54
Devildog

Devildodo, Remember, beach drivers and passengers are two percent of visitors to CHNS. Your influence and economic benefit compared to many other user groups pale by comparision. Everyone now knows this. I’d even guess there are far, far more than two percent of visitors that are bird and turtle protectionists. Of course your two percent deserve a say, but not 40 percent of the beach as a offroading course. That is totally obscene.

Blah blah blah…… You’ll see entrance fees for all way before you’ll see the ORV beaches reduced to 2% of the total mileage, as only you and your “Concerned” sockpuppet have consumed your koolaid.

No wonder a wildlife lover just became embolded. All the outraged ORV proponents have suddenly changed into just a few little overly selfish and entitled people that falsely captivated our island. And all it took to find the truth was the ability to count. Weird, huh?

If you’re truly a “wildlife lover” as you claim, then you should be similarly outraged at the fact that the untrained pedestrian user group routinely commit in excess of 2,000% more of the protected species enclosure violations year in and year out at CAHA.

In 2015, one of the 98% actually committed a tragic “take” by trampling and killing a freshly-laid sea turtle egg:

Park staff documented one instance of human disturbance that resulted in one egg being trampled and broken from a single nest on Ocracoke Island. The single pedestrian came upon a nesting Loggerhead sea turtle and thought that it was in distress, the pedestrian proceeded to dump sea water on the nesting female in order to “revive” it.

While walking around the unprotected nesting female, one egg was trampled. Park staff was able to respond to the incident and use the trampled egg for DNA analysis.

This extremely unfortunate federal crime could have easily been avoided had this member of the 98% been required to undergo training as to how to interact with sensitive species within CAHA.

This constant endangerment to the protected species within CAHA by the pedestrian user group must end!

Devildog - 19-03-’18 17:20
Devildog

Who said it does? So what? All that the regneg committee decided was that the official name of this Park was Cape Hatteras National Seashore and Recreation Area, and that it is to be treated like any other Seashore. But the ORVers continue to incorrectly insist that it has some special management (ie. an ORV/beachdriving clause). No body but a small group of 2%ers refers to this park other than Cape Hatteras National Seashore.

Oh, look, Billfish couldn’t get any traction for his latest jihad, so he went and created himself a sockpuppet so he could have a fake echo-chamber! How quaint…..

Besides, the crafters of the EL and the folks in charge of the DOI during the 1937-38 were adamant that ORV use was culturally significant, yet another fact that was flushed out in Neg-Reg.
To Wit:
Early NPS surveys recommended “restricted driving along the ocean beach when and where consistent with other uses,” but also recommended roads because, as the caption on this photo noted, “auto travel on the sand roads is difficult and severe on mechanical parts.” – “Report on Recommendations for Boundaries of the Cape Hatteras National Seashore,” (NPS, January 1938)

I’ve been informed of the 2017 preliminary results and would bet you have too. AMOY nesting was horrible in 2017 only a couple of AMOY chicks fledged. Resource management in 2016 was not operating under the new ORV changes. It will be a fact that since the revised regs (outside of NEPA purview) nesting success for AMOY precipitously declined in 2017. If this Park starts loosing unique beach nesting birds that were fledging chicks here before humans arrived, the Park will have failed in its mission, whatever the reasons.

Hmmm….. Been informed of the 2017 preliminary results, have you?

Sounds kinda conflict-of-interest-y to me, as Mike Barber from CAHA Public Affairs informed me in late Feb. that they were shooting for March, but might not make it.

If you’ve got a “man on the inside”, you might want to tread lightly, lest they end up going down the career path of one Doug McGee.

Under pressure from ORV lobbing the predator management program has been abandoned for all practical purposes. For the life of me I can’t understand why anyone who sport fishes with bait specifically for catch and release would have a problem with predator management. The real reason for their opposition to the Park’s predator management program is that the ORVers are interested in increasing predators numbers so as to comprise nesting success for species that cause ORV access restrictions. A good number of them would be delighted if AMOYs and piping plovers never nested here again.

CONSPIRACY THEORY ALERT!!!!!!

I’m guessing most of the AMOY pedestrian intrusions occurred outside of Buxton in an area where surfers park on Highway 12 and kiteboarders outside of Hatteras Village in areas that is closed year round to ORV use. The closed area outside of Buxton often changes week to week. It is confusing and surfers are notoriously lack about following any rules. In any case the Park should do a better job of educating visitors about nesting resource and closures. These same types and numbers of intrusions have been occurring fairly consistently but what has changed is different management of ORVs in 2017. So far no pedestrians have stomped nesting sea turtles into oblivion the way ORVs have.

Why are you intentionally misleading the IPF readership again?:

Park staff documented one instance of human disturbance that resulted in one egg being trampled and broken from a single nest on Ocracoke Island. The single pedestrian came upon a nesting Loggerhead sea turtle and thought that it was in distress, the pedestrian proceeded to dump sea water on the nesting female in order to “revive” it. While walking around the unprotected nesting female, one egg was trampled. Park staff was able to respond to the incident and use the trampled egg for DNA analysis.

A naughty, lying little sockpuppet you are.

It appears you are not so concerned about economics of the local businesses. You propose that pedestrians should be charged to get on the beach and I guess band them anywhere there is a resource enclosure? See how many local businesses jump on that bandwagon. You all are showing your true colors. Go for it.

More Billfish claptrap. I’ve only told you user fees for all are coming, and all your poutrage is just going to make it happened sooner.

Neither the Park or the ORV lobby has ever addressed what was the historical norm of traditional ORV use. It certainly wasn’t what it has morphed into today. IIf the beach was as wide as it was in the 1950’s with the same number of vehicles on the beach now as then I would be fine with few ORV regulations, actually I am fine with appropriate ORV use in the Park today. I am guessing my idea of appropriate use differs dramatically from yours. I don’t expect you get my point.

More BS. DOI Secretary Conrad Wirth is here from 1952 to call you out on that:

“Concerning access to the beach (question 4),— when I met with you I explained that when the lands for the Recreational Area are acquired and become public property there will always be access to the beach for all people, whether they are local residents or visitors from the outside. However, it will be necessary to establish certain regulations, such as to designate places for vehicles to get to the beach, in order to reduce sand dune erosion to a minimum, to manage ocean fishing where large numbers of bathers are using the beach, and to confine bathing to certain areas.”

Nobody refers to Cape Hatteras National Seashore as a recreational area except the hard core ORVers (the 2% of the 2%ers). The, “and recreation area”, was specifically added to allow waterfowl hunting within the Park, the only way a National Park could allow waterfowl hunting at that time. It doesn’t make any difference anyway as it is clearly spelled out in the enabling legislation and the Organic Act as to how the Park should be managed. I have my doubts you are misinformed about any of this.

Doesn’t matter a whit, as the official legal name includes “Recreation Area”, now doesn’t it?

You are flat out wrong if you think the single most important thing for CHNS is to provide ORV access to the 2%ers. (read the enabling legislation.

I know that you’re desperate to re-litigate the ORV Final Rule, but that’s a done-deal and you’ll be pushing a great deal of rope up a mountainside if you really think that you’ll get the NPS for one to go there again, not to mention your neighbors.

Lighten up, Billfish. Going through life in a perpetual state of poutrage is unhealthy for you and those around you.

Devildog - 19-03-’18 18:04
pussycat

Devildodo,
You asked if this all about the critters? My answer is no. This is about realizing the truth that ORVers only make up just two percent of visitorship to HI. Seems like people forgot to count when deciding on the beach plan. There is no logical or ethical reason why beach allocation and useage can be swayed to just please two percent of visitorship. Two percent of visitorship should never have the right to control up to 40 percent of the beach. The national park service and all of HI is now on to the two percenters. Thank you for your devilish banter—the “two percenter” fact would never of been revealed without you. Bottom line: the ORV sand grabbers aren’t so big and important as they made themselves out to be. It was all a ruse, a con, false bravado and fairy dust…all from the two percenters.

pussycat - 19-03-’18 19:24
Concerned

Devildog
Comcerned,
A likely legacy will be that under his watch breeding American Oyster Catchers will be extricated from CHNS.
Your “concern” and comments concerning AMOY are completely false, as the NPS data states otherwise:
Table 1. Summary of AMOY Reproductive Success 2010 – 2016.
2010: 23 Pairs, 28 Nests
2011: 23 Pairs, 26 Nests
2012: 22 Pairs, 30 Nests
2013: 27 Pairs, 42 Nests
2014: 26 Pairs, 38 Nests
2015: 25 Pairs, 43 Nests
2016: 26 Pairs, 41 Nests
The NPS data shows the trend is either stable or growing slightly.
https://www.nps.gov/articles/upload/2016-Annual-Reports-FINAL-03-09-2017-508.pdf
One would hope that you’re just terribly misinformed and not intentionally misleading the IFP readership.
”The rest of the colonial nesting birds didn’t fair so well either. 2016 was a disastrous colonial breeding breed year.”
Also a false statement. To Wit:
Historical Comparison
The total number of documented (CWB) nests for all but one species in CAHA increased in 2016 (Figures 1-5).
Productivity
Productivity in unmarked CWB colonies is very difficult to determine. While it is certain multiple colonies fledged chicks, there are no definitive numbers for CWB productivity at CAHA.
Discussion
The 2016 CWB nesting season resulted in greater nest numbers in four of the five species that were documented to nest at CAHA.
(From the same 2016 Annual Report that you apparently haven’t read)
“This study indicates that the ORV restrictions are actually a net benefit for North Carolina,” von Haefen says. “
One study doth not a consensus make, and if you’re in the same “No ORV’s” camp with Billfish, a complete ban on ORV’s would completely devastate the HI economy and cripple the CAHA NPS budget.
Maybe the park will come to there senses and revisit some of these changes. The Park had the opportunity to implement changes that would not have been so hurtful to breeding birds but choose not to.
More falsehoods. The NPS data clearly shows that breeding birds are more negatively affected by weather and predation:
Nest Failures and Chick Mortality Three factors at CAHA are thought to contribute to the loss of nests or chicks on a yearly basis: predator disturbance, abandonment, and weather.
As a matter of fact, pedestrian disturbance is the most prevalent source of human disturbance year in and year out:
Human Disturbance
Human disturbance, direct or indirect, can lead to the abandonment of nests or loss of chicks. Throughout the season, resource management staff documented 181 pedestrian, nine ORV, and 33 dog, boat or horse intrusions in the AMOY nesting closures.

Pedestrian entry most often required visitors to lift or stoop under the string that connected all posted signs, while vehicular entry required visitors to drive through or around a sign boundary. Only 9 ORV AMOY nest incursions in 2014 compared to 181 pedestrian. That’s 1,911% higher. It appears that you’re barking up the wrong tree as to which user group has a more negative affect on nesting shorebirds. In closing, the Cape Hatteras National Seashore Recreation Area, (it’s full, legal name since 1940), is jjst that, a recreation area, set aside purposefully for humans to recreate on. Off Road Vehicle (ORV) use on Hatteras and Ocracoke Islands is not just a form of recreation, but is recognized as a traditional form of beach access. Access to this historic seashore for the purposes of recreation pre-dates not only the inception of the National Park Service, but the nation as well. Pea Island National Wildlife Refuge is exactly what the name implies, just as Cape Hatteras National Seashore Recreation Area is, and one does not equal the other. This was all borne out in during the NEPA Negotiated Rulemaking process, and has not and will not change in the foreseeable future. Devildog – 17-03-’18 21:54

“Pea Island National Wildlife Refuge is exactly what the name implies, just as Cape Hatteras National Seashore Recreation Area is, and one does not equal the other.
This was all borne out in during the NEPA Negotiated Rulemaking process, and has not and will not change in the foreseeable future..”
Devildog – 17-03-’18 21:54

Who said it does? So what? All that the regneg committee decided was that the official name of this Park was Cape Hatteras National Seashore and Recreation Area, and that it is to be treated like any other Seashore. But the ORVers continue to incorrectly insist that it has some special management (ie. an ORV/beachdriving clause). No body but a small group of 2%ers refers to this park other than Cape Hatteras National Seashore.

I’ve been informed of the 2017 preliminary results and would bet you have too. AMOY nesting was horrible in 2017 only a couple of AMOY chicks fledged. Resource management in 2016 was not operating under the new ORV changes. It will be a fact that since the revised regs (outside of NEPA purview) nesting success for AMOY precipitously declined in 2017. If this Park starts loosing unique beach nesting birds that were fledging chicks here before humans arrived, the Park will have failed in its mission, whatever the reasons.

Under pressure from ORV lobbing the predator management program has been abandoned for all practical purposes. For the life of me I can’t understand why anyone who sport fishes with bait specifically for catch and release would have a problem with predator management. The real reason for their opposition to the Park’s predator management program is that the ORVers are interested in increasing predators numbers so as to comprise nesting success for species that cause ORV access restrictions. A good number of them would be delighted if AMOYs and piping plovers never nested here again.

I’m guessing most of the AMOY pedestrian intrusions occurred outside of Buxton in an area where surfers park on Highway 12 and kiteboarders outside of Hatteras Village in areas that is closed year round to ORV use. The closed area outside of Buxton often changes week to week. It is confusing and surfers are notoriously lack about following any rules. In any case the Park should do a better job of educating visitors about nesting resource and closures. These same types and numbers of intrusions have been occurring fairly consistently but what has changed is different management of ORVs in 2017. So far no pedestrians have stomped nesting sea turtles into oblivion the way ORVs have.

It appears you are not so concerned about economics of the local businesses. You propose that pedestrians should be charged to get on the beach and I guess band them anywhere there is a resource enclosure? See how many local businesses jump on that bandwagon. You all are showing your true colors. Go for it.

Neither the Park or the ORV lobby has ever addressed what was the historical norm of traditional ORV use. It certainly wasn’t what it has morphed into today. IIf the beach was as wide as it was in the 1950’s with the same number of vehicles on the beach now as then I would be fine with few ORV regulations, actually I am fine with appropriate ORV use in the Park today. I am guessing my idea of appropriate use differs dramatically from yours. I don’t expect you get my point.

Nobody refers to Cape Hatteras National Seashore as a recreational area except the hard core ORVers (the 2% of the 2%ers). The, “and recreation area”, was specifically added to allow waterfowl hunting within the Park, the only way a National Park could allow waterfowl hunting at that time. It doesn’t make any difference anyway as it is clearly spelled out in the enabling legislation and the Organic Act as to how the Park should be managed. I have my doubts you are misinformed about any of this.

You are flat out wrong if you think the single most important thing for CHNS is to approvide ORV access to the 2%ers. (read the enabling legislation).

Actually those are pretty appalling numbers for the ORVers. They are made aware of resource protection closures when they buy their permit. Yet there were still 9 infractions in 2014 compared to 181 for pedestrians. We don’t know how many of those pedestrian infractions were by visitors who drove to the enclosure parked their car and then walked into the closure. If 98% of the pedestrian visitors accounted for 181 violations then 2% of ORVers should have only accounted for 3.7 violations not 9, per capita.

Concerned - 19-03-’18 20:10
Devildog

I missed yet another falsehood in your initial post, “Concerned”, seen highlighted below:

“Under pressure from ORV lobbing [SIC] the predator management program has been abandoned for all practical purposes.”

The NPS annual reports have this to say:

During the 2015 breeding season, the trapping program at CAHA was not completely implemented due to insufficient staffing.

During the 2016 breeding season, trapping at CAHA was not implemented due to the lack of a trained trapper on staff.

Please provide proof of “ORV Lobbying” that has led to the abandonment of the CAHA NPS predator management program or stand corrected.

Devildog - 19-03-’18 21:56
ShellyPointer

All y’all,

Isn’t it Cape Hatteras National Recreational Area? Iffin’ your gonna call it by its real name, at least use Recreational Area not Recreation Area.

ShellyPointer - 19-03-’18 23:02
Concerned

Trapping program
Just putting 2 and 2 together. Drive around and read the bumper stickers that have an ORV org (NCBBA. OBPA , CHAC) logo and see how many Audubon identify this bird, piping plover taste like chicken, and NPS trapping bumper stickers or read some of the message boards, it is pretty obvious what user group has a problem with the Park’s defunct trapping program. Come on you know it is the truth.
I could probably FOIA the park for letters, if it was worth my time, and find many connections to the 2%ers.
Can you can tell me where I can get one of those trapping bumper stickers? Have you read the enabling legislation yet?

Concerned - 20-03-’18 01:28
Devildog

Actually those are pretty appalling numbers for the ORVers. They are made aware of resource protection closures when they buy their permit. Yet there were still 9 infractions in 2014 compared to 181 for pedestrians.

Ummmm….. Do you actually read what you type before you post it?

We don’t know how many of those pedestrian infractions were by visitors who drove to the enclosure parked their car and then walked into the closure.

99.999999% of every visitor to the island arrived by motor vehicle, unless they came by air, sea or unicorn.

If 98% of the pedestrian visitors accounted for 181 violations then 2% of ORVers should have only accounted for 3.7 violations not 9, per capita.

I’ve heard of mental gymnastics, but that attempt at math is more like mental bondage.

Devildog - 20-03-’18 01:41
Comfused

To the people pushing and believing the 2% stat,

The 2% stat doesn’t make any sense because the 40,000 ORV permits sold is probably pretty close to a unique number, but Seashore visitation is total visitation, not unique visitors. So you can’t simply say 40,000 permits out of 2.5 million visitors equals 2%.

If a person buys an annual permit, it probably means they are a visitor quite a few times a year and a 10-day permittee probably visits the Seashore at least 5 of those days? Then when you factor in family and friends in the ORVs that adds to the total visitation.

I believe the Seashore uses traffic counters and I’m pretty sure there are counters at Whalebone, Cape Hatteras Lighthouse, and Ocracoke, at the very least. The counters cannot tell why a vehicle is visiting the park, so UPS/FedEx trucks count, Bonner Bridge contractors count, etc. I assume that the visitation number also includes a multiplier to factor in passengers in vehicles.

Ps. I don’t own an ORV and I have never driven on a beach, only concerned that very faulty stats are being used to manipulate conversation here.

Comfused - 21-03-’18 13:55
Devildog

These long breaks between moderation allow for more in-depth study of the numbers Joy has provided us, and these parts of the 2017 CAHA budget bear a second look:

• $2.7M off-road vehicle permits
• $2.3M camping and lighthouse fees

So, if there were 3.12M non-ORV visitors per Billfish’s claims, the $2.3M in camping and lighthouse fees divided by 3.12M = $0.74 spent per visitor.

Conversely, the $2.7M collected from ORV users, divided by the 40K permits comes to $67.50 spent per visitor.

It would appear that non-ORV users are quite the misers.

This paltry sum spent per pedestrian, coupled with the up to 2,000% higher number of resource closure violations by the pedestrian user group clearly show that this group is not shouldering it’s fair share of the budget load at CAHA, and is in desperate need of environmental training before more sensitive species are disturbed and/or taken.

These inequities must end!

Devildog - 21-03-’18 19:47
Devildog

Apologies for going off-topic, but Billfish needs to respond to this:

A self-driving test car from Uber Technologies Inc. hit and killed a pedestrian in Tempe, near Phoenix, late Sunday, prompting investigations by regulators and a backlash from some consumer-safety advocates.

“It will set consumer confidence in the technology back years if not decades,” said Jason Levine, executive director of the Center for Auto Safety, a Washington-based advocacy group. “We need to slow down.”

I told you repeatedly that this technology wasn’t ready for prime time, and the technology just proved me right.

Devildog - 21-03-’18 19:49
Devildog

Just putting 2 and 2 together. Drive around and read the bumper stickers that have an ORV org (NCBBA. OBPA , CHAC) logo and see how many Audubon identify this bird, piping plover taste like chicken, and NPStrapping bumper stickers or read some of the message boards, it is pretty obvious what user group has a problem with the Park’s defunct trapping program. Come on you know it is the truth.

A “correlation” based solely upon bumper stickers? How very scientific of you……

I could probably FOIA the park for letters, if it was worth my time, and find many connections to the 2%ers.

And I could probably read bumper stickers as tea leaves and find many connections to Bernie Sanders.

Can you can tell me where I can get one of those trapping bumper stickers?

Having never even seen one, no.

Have you read the enabling legislation yet?

Enough times to know that CAHA is a park with a dual mandate. IE: recreation and conservation.

This is yet another inconvenient truth for your side that was borne out during Neg-Reg.

Devildog - 26-03-’18 16:55
pussycat

Devil dodo,
In 1899 a man was run over in NYC by a gasoline powered automobile. It was big news that others claimed as the demise of the horseless carriage, By 1908 the gasoline powered automobile had surged in popularity as an everday, massed produced product. Buggy whip manufacturers said but..but..but. You are still thinking like a “buggy whip manufacture” when it comes to electric self-driving vehicles. That said, all your other banter related to your latest posts is just meaningless dribble as you once again defect away from the big picture. Here’s the big picture: Only two percent of visitorship to CHNS Hatteras Island have paid their way into controlling up to 40 percent of the beach as their personal off-roading course. By the way, I publicly changed my name in honor of the womens march and against your backwards thinking. Now the never again movement showed up in DC in way, way higher numbers than Trump’s really, really “huge” coronation, the “largest” ever. This past weekend Trump ran away to play golf. Now he’s running away to avoid Melania. He feels like a trapped rat…because that is exactly what he is. Maybe he should seek amnesty within NRA headquarters. The same thing happened during the Independence movement, the Emancipation movement, the Womens Vote movement, the Child Labor Movement, the Civil Rights Movement, the anti Vietnam War Movement and the Never Again Movement. The regressives like you will lose again. #Resist #Never Again

pussycat - 26-03-’18 18:42
Pussycat

Comfused,
You are being purposely confusing even in name stealing. If that’s all you got, you’ve got nothing, pure BS. Here is the fact: two percent of visitorship—beach drivers and passengers—have paid their way into controlling up to 40 percent of the beach. If wrong, lets see OBPA and NCBBA prove that the numbers are wrong, not just by banter…but by actual numbers. Truth be told, up all of your excuses and it makes no difference because of the overwhelming difference in percentages.

Pussycat - 26-03-’18 18:59
Devildog

Billfish,

In 1899 a man was run over in NYC by a gasoline powered automobile. It was big news that others claimed as the demise of the horseless carriage, By 1908 the gasoline powered automobile had surged in popularity as an everday, massed produced product. Buggy whip manufacturers said but..but..but.

An expert on the subject had this to say:

“It will set consumer confidence in the technology back years if not decades,” said Jason Levine, executive director of the Center for Auto Safety, a Washington-based advocacy group. “We need to slow down.”

I’ll take his informed word over your utopian wishes, thanks.

You are still thinking like a “buggy whip manufacture” when it comes to electric self-driving vehicles.

No, I’m speaking from a position of knowledge, being an engineer in the automation field with decades of experience and all.

You’re just talking out the side of your neck.

That said, all your other banter related to your latest posts is just meaningless dribble as you once again defect away from the big picture. Here’s the big picture: Only two percent of visitorship to CHNS Hatteras Island have paid their way into controlling up to 40 percent of the beach as their personal off-roading course.

My dribble is much more meaningful than yours, as my prediction will come to pass, and yours never will. Bank on it.

By the way, I publicly changed my name in honor of the womens march and against your backwards thinking. Now the never again movement showed up in DC in way, way higher numbers than Trump’s really, really “huge” coronation, the “largest” ever.

BZZZT: Wrong again. Last weekend’s march brought only 200K, when 5-600K were predicted by the leftists in the media, which is in no way “the largest” anything.

To Wit:

The inauguration of Donald Trump as the 45th President of the United States marked commencement of the four-year term of Donald Trump as President and Mike Pence as Vice President. An estimated 300,000–600,0001[2people attended the public ceremony held on Friday, January 20, 2017.

You just don’t get tired of being dead wrong, do you?

This past weekend Trump ran away to play golf. Now he’s running away to avoid Melania. He feels like a trapped rat…because that is exactly what he is. Maybe he should seek amnesty within NRA headquarters. The same thing happened during the Independence movement, the Emancipation movement, the Womens Vote movement, the Child Labor Movement, the Civil Rights Movement, the anti Vietnam War Movement and the Never Again Movement. The regressives like you will lose again. #Resist #Never Again

Whee! And down the TDS rabbit hole you go again. Last night’s “bombshell interview” of a cocaine-addled prostitute was about as ground-breaking as Geraldo Rivera’s “Al Capone’s Vault” debacle.

Pipe Dream On, Billfish…..

Devildog - 26-03-’18 20:23
pussycat

Devil dodo,
Remington files Chapter 11. Citi bank will not accept any new retail business that sell high capacity magazines and don’t require 24 hour background checks. Kroegers drops selling guns nationwide. The economic hammer is coming down from responsible people and businesses. It will grow to epic proportions while the NRA screams and whines into now deaf ears. Next up, responsible hunters and outdoors people will take down Cabellas unless they drop ar-15 semis and large capacity mags. There’s no turning back now. It’s too late. There is only
the ever marching forward as America leaves behind a nation briefly held hostage by fake patriots holding our flag. No longer.

pussycat - 26-03-’18 20:41
Devildog

“Pussycat” said:

Comfused,

You are being purposely confusing even in name stealing.

Rather telling that you would come running to the defense of “Comcerned” rather than “comcerned” themselves.

A crafty sock puppet master you are not……..

Devildog - 26-03-’18 20:46
Devildog

Billfish,

Devil dodo,
Remington files Chapter 11. Citi bank will not accept any new retail business that sell high capacity magazines and don’t require 24 hour background checks. Kroegers drops selling guns nationwide. The economic hammer is coming down from responsible people and businesses. It will grow to epic proportions while the NRA screams and whines into now deaf ears. Next up, responsible hunters and outdoors people will take down Cabellas unless they drop ar-15 semis and large capacity mags. There’s no turning back now. It’s too late.

Blah blah blah…….

All that means nothing because of this:

“A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”

What part of “shall not be infringed” are you having a hard time understanding?

There is only the ever marching forward as America leaves behind a nation briefly held hostage by fake patriots holding our flag. No longer.

There you go “othering” again.

Othering – definition and synonyms
NOUN [UNCOUNTABLE] LINGUISTICS, PSYCHOLOGY
1. Treating people from another group as essentially different from and generally inferior to the group you belong to.

2. A divided society where all problems are blamed on the other side

You once copped to being an ideologue, but your TDS has turned you into a dangerous demagogue.

Devildog - 26-03-’18 20:55
pussycat

Quote the march’s attendance numbers as you like. Seems like everybody is doing it. One thing is certain, on Saturday, 550,800 paying customers rode the metro into Washington DC. On a Saturday!…in March, after congress left, government shut down, and the weather wasn’t so good. Slow down on those fireballs big boy…hicup, burp.

pussycat - 26-03-’18 21:09
Pussycat

Devildog,
What don’t you understand about the word “regulated.” By your interpretation, Walmart should be making money by selling you a stinger missile or a nuclear bomb to keep up your side regarding the “Arms”race of potential threats. Oh nevermind, Walmart just moved to the gun safety side.

Pussycat - 26-03-’18 21:19
pussycat

Devil dodo,
Of course I’m an idealogue, half parody, half truth, with a lot of hyperbole baked in. Like you’re not? Oh, thatks right, you’re a professioal engineer with years of experience in the automation industry. Me, I’m just a poor ol country boy living in Eastern Cackalackey with little to show for myself. But I did get the 2 percenter fact flat out right.

pussycat - 26-03-’18 22:01
Devildog

Quote the march’s attendance numbers as you like. Seems like everybody is doing it. One thing is certain, on Saturday, 550,800 paying customers rode the metro into Washington DC. On a Saturday!…in March, after congress left, government shut down, and the weather wasn’t so good. Slow down on those fireballs big boy…hicup, burp.

A Virginia-based company, the Digital Design & Imaging Service, estimated that the crowd size was around 202,796 people, with a 15 percent margin of error and a peak in crowd size around 1 P.M.

‘Nuff said…….

What don’t you understand about the word “regulated.”

Sorry, but you “answered” a question with another question. Care to try, try again?

By your interpretation, Walmart should be making money by selling you a stinger missile or a nuclear bomb to keep up your side regarding the “Arms”race of potential threats. Oh nevermind, Walmart just moved to the gun safety side.

There you go attempting and failing to put your words in another’s mouth again. Please show where any 2nd Amendment proponent has ever said anything of the sort or stand outed as a liar.

Of course I’m an idealogue, half parody, half truth, with a lot of hyperbole baked in. Like you’re not?

No, you’re a demagogue, which is exponentially worse. You operate on hate and emotion rather than critical thought.

Oh, thatks right, you’re a professioal engineer with years of experience in the automation industry.

It’s actually rather simple. I know what I’m talking about when it comes to that industry and you obviously don’t.

Me, I’m just a poor ol country boy living in Eastern Cackalackey with little to show for myself.

No, you’re actually just a hate-filled leftist demagogue and failed sock puppet master.

But I did get the 2 percenter fact flat out right.

Nope, you tortured some math to derive the pre-conceived answer that you desired. You know, kind of like the whole Anthropogenic Global Warming Theory.

Got any other backtracking you’d like to attempt?

Devildog - 27-03-’18 00:32
pussycat

Devil Dodo,
Yes, I’d like to backtrack to the original intent of Hatteras by the Numbers. Did you know that two percent of visitorship—ORV permit holders and passengers—at CHNS Hatteras have use of up to 40 percent of the beach as their offroading course. This offensive allocation of our national seashore to such a small user group must end. You even stated that this two percent/forty percent is correct” right in your first set of posting on this blog. Yes, it is flat out correct. Even your ORV associations are unable to refute the two percenter ratio.
Why? Because someone finally counted.

pussycat - 31-03-’18 22:04
Devildog

Sock Puppeteer,

Begone, fake news personified. You’ve lost any and all credibility on this forum.

Devildog - 02-04-’18 20:46
Concerned

Devildog

You are correct that this park has a dual mission but incorrect that the 2 missions are equal. I get it it that you don’t appreciate AMOYs. I do. Part of my recreation is that I get to see these birds in their natural setting and that future visitors will also have that opportunity. Last year the Park fledge 2 oystercatchers. The Park is not managing their resource correctly. Both the EL for CAHA and the Organic Act specifically address these concerns.

Also it is amazing that you want to charge people to walk on the beach. Your ORV permit is for driving your vehicle9n the beach. If you are your passengers get out of the vehicle then they too will need to buy a dying the beach permit. I really hope you all keep pushing that agenda.

“The National Park Service manages a broad array of natural and cultural resources in over 400 units spread across the United States and its territories. The NPS Organic Act established the mission for the NPS to: conserve these resources unimpaired for future generations and provide for their enjoyment. Appropriate management actions help to ensure natural and cultural resources are not injured or lost. Natural resources, processes, systems, and values are all included in the term “natural resources.’’

“Except for certain portions of the area, deemed to be especially adaptable for recreational uses, particularly swimming, boating, sailing, fishing, and other recreational activities of similar nature, which shall be developed for such uses as needed, the said area shall be permanently reserved as a primitive wilderness and no development of the project or plan for the convenience of visitors shall be undertaken which would be incompatible with the preservation of the unique flora and fauna or the physiographic conditions now prevailing in this area…
(Aug. 17, 1937, ch. 687, Sec. 4, 50 Stat. 670; June 29, 1940, ch. 459, Sec. 1, 54 Stat. 702; Mar. 6, 1946, ch. 50, 60 Stat. 32.)”

https://www.nps.gov/caha/learn/management/lawsandpolicies.htm

Concerned - 05-04-’18 22:02
Devildog

“Concerned”-Fish,

You are correct that this park has a dual mission but incorrect that the 2 missions are equal.

Oh, they are absolutely equal, and were proven to be just that during Neg-Reg. More on that later.

I get it it that you don’t appreciate AMOYs. I do. Part of my recreation is that I get to see these birds in their natural setting and that future visitors will also have that opportunity.

Please spare us from the virtue signaling. AMOY are among my favorite shorebirds to photograph, due to their sunset-like eye and bill colors. Among my favorites photos are a mated pair with green NC band numbers R0 and R2, taken from my vehicle, which they were not afraid of. As soon as I stepped out to get another angle, they took flight. Imagine that!

Last year the Park fledge 2 oystercatchers. The Park is not managing their resource correctly.

And in 2016 12 were fledged. If you study the 2016 final report, you’ll notice the trend line from 2001 – 2015 goes upward:

https://www.nps.gov/articles/upload/2016-Annual-Reports-FINAL-03-09-2017-508.pdf

Also, where are you getting your information? Mike Barber from CAHA Manteo informed me just last Friday that the 2017 Final Report will not be published until mid-April through May 1st. I think I’ll let him know that there is a leaker on staff the next time we chat.

Until that time, we’ll mark your “data” down as anecdotal, just like your bumper-sticker/trapper “study”.

Both the EL for CAHA and the Organic Act specifically address these concerns.

AMOY are an IUCN “Species of Least Concern”, and a Special Concern Species by the North Carolina Wildlife Resources Commission and a Species of High Concern in the U.S. Shorebird Conservation Plan. In short, they are neither endangered or threatened, and per the 2016 annual report:
The main cause of direct mortality of chicks and eggs is believed to be mammalian predators.”

You’re barking up the wrong tree, sock puppet.

Also it is amazing that you want to charge people to walk on the beach.

I’m not calling for it directly, I’m just warning you that it’s coming. Probably sooner than you think.

Your ORV permit is for driving your vehicle9n [SIC} the beach. If you are your passengers get out of the vehicle then they too will need to buy a dying [SIC] the beach permit. I really hope you all keep pushing that agenda.

Not very National Park-savvy, are you? The big parks out west charge $15 per person, $30 per carload, and admission of all occupants would certainly be grandfathered into an ORV permit.

You’re just not very good at this.

“The National Park Service manages a broad array of natural and cultural resources in over 400 units spread across the United States and its territories. The NPS Organic Act established the mission for the NPS to: conserve these resources unimpaired for future generations and provide for their enjoyment. Appropriate management actions help to ensure natural and cultural resources are not injured or lost. Natural resources, processes, systems, and values are all included in the term “natural resources.’’

(Yawn) Your argument is sooooo 10 years old. ORV use within CAHA was deemed correctly to be “historically and culturally significant” during Neg-Reg, and your snippet goes to further that point.

Speaking of proving my point, the dual mandate for CAHA was also provided by you.

Recreational Component:

“Except for certain portions of the area, deemed to be especially adaptable for recreational uses, particularly swimming, boating, sailing, fishing, and other recreational activities of similar nature, which shall be developed for such uses as needed,….

Conservation Component:

…..the said area shall be permanently reserved as a primitive wilderness and no development of the project or plan for the convenience of visitors shall be undertaken which would be incompatible with the preservation of the unique flora and fauna or the physiographic conditions now prevailing in this area…

Doesn’t get much more clear-cut than that.

In closing, the Defenders of Wildlife, Southern Environmental Law Center and Audubon all put their best and brightest lawyers into the Negotiated Rulemaking process in the attempt to completely ban ORV use from CAHA and lost, so rest assured that your latest attempt at the same will meet an identical fate.

No matter how many sock puppets you create……..

Devildog - 07-04-’18 20:17
pussycat

Devil Dodo the two percenter,
You believe I am posting as “Concerned.” You are wrong. My postings are mainly focused around the following: Just two percent of visitorship—ORV permit holders and passengers—have use of up to forty percent of the beach as an off-roading track. This must be corrected to be more in balance with all user groups, including the 98 percent of visitors that are not ORV permit holders and passengers.

pussycat - 12-04-’18 20:04
pussycat

My update from a previous conversation. Dick’s Sporting Goods and Field and Stream are removing and DESTROYING all assault style
weapons and high capacity magazines from their stores nationwide. Blackrock, one of the world’s largest mutal and hedge funds, will no longer lend to or purchase investments in any manufacturer of assault
assault type AR-15 style semi-automatic weapons. This Friday is National Walkout Day for every high school, college and university in support of common sense gun laws and in protest of politicians receiving campaign funds from the NRA. Recent polls nationwide show that 97 percent of all adult Americans support stricter background checks, increased age limits and the closing of gun show loopholes.
The kids from Parkland and nationwide are sending the old school back back to school. Hurray for our young Americans!

pussycat - 17-04-’18 19:36
Devildog

Devil Dodo the two percenter,

You believe I am posting as “Concerned.” You are wrong.

Billfish the Known Liar,

I don’t believe you, sorry.

This Friday is National Walkout Day for every high school, college and university in support of common sense gun laws and in protest of politicians receiving campaign funds from the NRA. Recent polls nationwide show that 97 percent of all adult Americans support stricter background checks, increased age limits and the closing of gun show loopholes.
The kids from Parkland and nationwide are sending the old school back back to school. Hurray for our young Americans!

Yeah, and the march on the capital at nearby Richmond, Va. was supposed to be 10,000 strong, yet only yielded an embarrassing 300.

By the numbers, that movement is a paper tiger.

Yet, even less credible is your CAHA 2%-er poutrage-fest, which laughably netted so few members that you had to go and create one!

Begone, troll. You’ve lost any and all credibility here.

Devildog - 21-04-’18 00:48
Concerned

the said area shall be permanently reserved as a primitive wilderness and no development of the project or plan for the convenience of visitors shall be undertaken which would be incompatible with the preservation of the unique flora and fauna

Concerned - 28-04-’18 21:04
Devildog

Concerned-Fish,

When you posted this:

……The said area shall be permanently reserved as a primitive wilderness and no development of the project or plan for the convenience of visitors shall be undertaken which would be incompatible with the preservation of the unique flora and fauna

Why did you fail to include the preamble below?

“Except for certain portions of the area, deemed to be especially adaptable for recreational uses, particularly swimming, boating, sailing, fishing, and other recreational activities of similar nature, which shall be developed for such uses as needed,….”

I know why. It’s because it’s an inconvenient truth to your “cause”, which is destined for abject failure.

Oh, and the 2017 Resource Report is in, and your “man on the inside” was correct, only 2 AMOY fledged this year.

However, you didn’t tell the whole story. I guess that’s why the IFP Editors let me stick around.

Here’s the rest of the story, in one concise paragraph:

Human activity was not identified as a cause of any of the nesting loss in any of the nests observed on the Seashore in 2017 and it cannot be determined if the intrusions had a disturbance effect on the monitored bird species.

Straight from the NPS biologists comes the absolutely irrefutable debunking of your claims.

You really should try a different hobby…….

Devildog - 07-05-’18 23:03
pussycat

Devil Dodo,
Stop clouding the truth. Here is the truth: Two percent of Hatteras Island visitorship—ORV permit holders and passengers—have use of up to 40 percent of the beach as their off-roading course. This is out of balance and must be corrected.

pussycat - 09-05-’18 01:12
Concerned

Devildog,

I never said the dramatically poor 2017 breeding season was because of ORV management. What I said was that since the new Regs for ORVs was instituted AMOY’s had a dismal nesting season (the worst ever recorded I believe), not that the new 2017 ORV management did or did not have anything to do with it. That is a fact. Just because no chicks or nests were determined not to be destroyed by a vehicle doesn’t mean a correlation between ORV management and breeding success isn’t a factor.

You are most definitely in error wether you admit it or not about protection of the resource and recreation being equal. A case in point about resource taking precedence over recreation is the recent closure of part of the ORV trail that leads to Cape Point that has stopped ORV access to Cape Point for a least tern colony. (I am not gloating and wish Cape Point had remained open to ORVs).

“when there is a conflict between conserving resources and values and providing for the enjoyment of the visitor, conservation is to be predominant”

NPS 2006 Management Policies

“According to the 2006 Management Policies, the Park Service “must leave park resources and values unimpaired,” a mandate that is construed to mean “when there is a conflict between conserving resources and values and providing for the enjoyment of the visitor, conservation is to be predominant.” Even if management actions do not impair park resources, park officials are still obligated to “conserve” them by minimizing or avoiding adverse impacts.”

“The courts, when called upon to interpret the Organic Act language, have consistently found that resource conservation takes priority over public enjoyment or other interests.”

“The courts, when called upon to interpret the Organic Act language, have consistently found that resource conservation takes priority over public enjoyment or other interests. In National Rifle Association v. Potter, a case that sustained the Park Service’s prohibition on hunting, the court held: “In the Organic Act, Congress speaks of but a single purpose, namely, conservation.”19 Later judicial decisions have reached the same conclusion, sustaining agency regulations that limit trapping, mountain biking, fishing, and whitewater rafting in the parks.20 In doing so, the courts have generally deferred to the agency’s regulatory restrictions, granting park officials considerable authority to ensure conservation takes priority over recreation and other park uses.”

Professor Robert B. Keiter, the Wallace Stegner professor of law, university distinguished professor, and director of theWallace Stegner Center for Land, Resources and the Environment at the University of Utah S.J.

https://www.nationalparkstraveler.org/2012/02/revisiting-organic-act-can-it-meet-next-century’s-conservation-challenges9441

The regneg was a failure that decided nothing don’t see the value in mentioning it.

2017 was a dismal nesting season for AMOYS. I am 100% sure you know this if you have talked with Resource. It is not anecdotal information.

Disheartening that you believe nesting AMOYS don’t deserve management protection from ORVs because they are considered, “Species of Least Concern”, (for now), despite that the CAHA’s EL specifically address those kinds of resources.
Again from the EL,
“the said area shall be permanently reserved as a primitive wilderness and no development of the project or plan for the convenience of visitors shall be undertaken which would be incompatible with the preservation of the unique flora and fauna”

I hope AMOYS have a better breeding season in 2018 under the new resource/ORV management than they did in 2017.

Concerned - 01-06-’18 17:16
pussycat

Concerned,
Looks like Devildawg’s handlers—NCBBA, etc.—have put a muzzle on him because he has been unable to refute the truth: ORV permit holders and passengers make up just two percent of visitorship, yet they have access of up to 40 of beach for offroading. This unfair inbalance needs to be corrected.

pussycat - 01-06-’18 18:04
Devildog

Concerned-Fish,

I never said the dramatically poor 2017 breeding season was because of ORV management.

BS:
Resource management in 2016 was not operating under the new ORV changes. It will be a fact that since the revised regs (outside of NEPA purview) nesting success for AMOY precipitously declined in 2017.

What I said was that since the new Regs for ORVs was instituted AMOY’s had a dismal nesting season (the worst ever recorded I believe), not that the new 2017 ORV management did or did not have anything to do with it. That is a fact.

What you actually said was:
A likely legacy will be that under his watch breeding American Oyster Catchers will be extricated from CHNS.
It is a fact that this has occurred since the new more liberal ORV rules were implemented.

(….and I think you meant “extirpated”.)

Just because no chicks or nests were determined not to be destroyed by a vehicle doesn’t mean a correlation between ORV management and breeding success isn’t a factor.
Never said it wasn’t a “factor”, but then again so are anti-trapping bumper stickers in your world.

But, this much we do know:

Human activity was not identified as a cause of any of the nesting loss in any of the nests observed on the Seashore in 2017 and it cannot be determined if the intrusions had a disturbance effect on the monitored bird species.

Case closed, all else is conjecture.

You are most definitely in error wether you admit it or not about protection of the resource and recreation being equal. A case in point about resource taking precedence over recreation is the recent closure of part of the ORV trail that leads to Cape Point that has stopped ORV access to Cape Point for a least tern colony. (I am not gloating and wish Cape Point had remained open to ORVs).

“when there is a conflict between conserving resources and values and providing for the enjoyment of the visitor, conservation is to be predominant”
NPS 2006 Management Policies

“According to the 2006 Management Policies, the Park Service “must leave park resources and values unimpaired,” a mandate that is construed to mean “when there is a conflict between conserving resources and values and providing for the enjoyment of the visitor, conservation is to be predominant.” Even if management actions do not impair park resources, park officials are still obligated to “conserve” them by minimizing or avoiding adverse impacts.”

Beach driving was issued a FONSI during the NEPA process, remember? That’s why it’s still around today, and will be for the rest of our lives, with occasional nests temporarily closing beaches as you have pointed out.
Besides, with pedestrian bird nest intrusions being 1,900+% higher than those or ORV’s, you should refocus your efforts on that user group.

The regneg was a failure that decided nothing don’t see the value in mentioning it.

It only failed because the enviro lawyers jumped ship and rented a judge.

2017 was a dismal nesting season for AMOYS. I am 100% sure you know this if you have talked with Resource. It is not anecdotal information.

Never said it was anecdotal, just that it was a one-time event, AKA and “anomaly” in the world of statistics.

You, on the other hand, are predicting the complete demise of AMOY’s over said anomaly:

A likely legacy will be that under his watch breeding American Oyster Catchers will be extricated [SIC] from CHNS.

Sounds kinda fear-monger-y to me……..

Disheartening that you believe nesting AMOYS don’t deserve management protection from ORVs because they are considered, “Species of Least Concern”, (for now), despite that the CAHA’s EL specifically address those kinds of resources.

There you go putting your words in another’s mouth again.

gain from the EL,
“the said area shall be permanently reserved as a primitive wilderness and no development of the project or plan for the convenience of visitors shall be undertaken which would be incompatible with the preservation of the unique flora and fauna”

Just hate that preamble, don’t you? Here it is again:

“Except for certain portions of the area, deemed to be especially adaptable for recreational uses, particularly swimming, boating, sailing, fishing, and other recreational activities of similar nature, which shall be developed for such uses as needed,….”

I hope AMOYS have a better breeding season in 2018 under the new resource/ORV management than they did in 2017.

As do I, and if you embrace science, step back and look at the big picture statistically, you’ll see that it’s likely they will.

Devildog - 01-06-’18 21:40
pussycat

Devildodo,
Waymo, a Google company, is launching 62,000 fully autonomous fiat/chrysler minivans right now as an uber like service. The race is on. It’s now US vs China in the battle for global transportation leadership as fully autonomous vehicles as a service kick in. It’s all happening even faster than I imagined as nations and megacorporation go all in despite any initial difficulties.

pussycat - 02-06-’18 02:16
pussycat

In support of protecting its 4000 miles of coastline and the world’s oceans, Chile has become the first nation in the Americas to ban
plastic bags at all retail stores nationwide. North Carolina, on the other hand, recently did just the opposite. How backwards and third world are we becoming?

pussycat - 02-06-’18 02:48
Devildog

Concerned-Fish,

I never said the dramatically poor 2017 breeding season was because of ORV management.

BS:

Resource management in 2016 was not operating under the new ORV changes. It will be a fact that since the revised regs (outside of NEPA purview) nesting success for AMOY precipitously declined in 2017.

What I said was that since the new Regs for ORVs was instituted AMOY’s had a dismal nesting season (the worst ever recorded I believe), not that the new 2017 ORV management did or did not have anything to do with it. That is a fact.

What you actually said was:

A likely legacy will be that under his watch breeding American Oyster Catchers will be extricated from CHNS.

It is a fact that this has occurred since the new more liberal ORV rules were implemented.

(….and I think you meant “extirpated”.)

You’re taking a one-time, singular event that cannot represent a trend, and forecasting the doom of a species. Get back to us in the Spring of 2020 and let us know if this happens 3+ times in a row.

Just because no chicks or nests were determined not to be destroyed by a vehicle doesn’t mean a correlation between ORV management and breeding success isn’t a factor.

Never said it wasn’t a “factor”, but then again so are anti-trapping bumper stickers in your world.

But, this much we do know:

Human activity was not identified as a cause of any of the nesting loss in any of the nests observed on the Seashore in 2017 and it cannot be determined if the intrusions had a disturbance effect on the monitored bird species.

Case closed, all else is conjecture.

You are most definitely in error wether you admit it or not about protection of the resource and recreation being equal. A case in point about resource taking precedence over recreation is the recent closure of part of the ORV trail that leads to Cape Point that has stopped ORV access to Cape Point for a least tern colony. (I am not gloating and wish Cape Point had remained open to ORVs).

“when there is a conflict between conserving resources and values and providing for the enjoyment of the visitor, conservation is to be predominant”
NPS 2006 Management Policies

“According to the 2006 Management Policies, the Park Service “must leave park resources and values unimpaired,” a mandate that is construed to mean “when there is a conflict between conserving resources and values and providing for the enjoyment of the visitor, conservation is to be predominant.” Even if management actions do not impair park resources, park officials are still obligated to “conserve” them by minimizing or avoiding adverse impacts.”

Beach driving was issued a FONSI during the NEPA process, remember? That’s why it’s still around today, and will be for the rest of our lives, with occasional nests temporarily closing beaches as you have pointed out.

Besides, with pedestrian bird nest intrusions being 1,900+% higher than those or ORV’s, you should refocus your efforts on that user group.

The regneg was a failure that decided nothing don’t see the value in mentioning it.

It only failed because the enviro lawyers jumped ship and rented a judge.

2017 was a dismal nesting season for AMOYS. I am 100% sure you know this if you have talked with Resource. It is not anecdotal information.

Never said it was anecdotal, just that it was a one-time event, AKA and “anomaly” in the world of statistics.

You, on the other hand, are predicting the complete demise of AMOY’s over said anomaly:

A likely legacy will be that under his watch breeding American Oyster Catchers will be extricated [SIC] from CHNS.

Sounds kinda fear-monger-y to me……..

Disheartening that you believe nesting AMOYS don’t deserve management protection from ORVs because they are considered, “Species of Least Concern”, (for now), despite that the CAHA’s EL specifically address those kinds of resources.

There you go putting your words in another’s mouth again.

Again from the EL,
“the said area shall be permanently reserved as a primitive wilderness and no development of the project or plan for the convenience of visitors shall be undertaken which would be incompatible with the preservation of the unique flora and fauna”

Just hate that preamble, don’t you? Here it is again:

“Except for certain portions of the area, deemed to be especially adaptable for recreational uses, particularly swimming, boating, sailing, fishing, and other recreational activities of similar nature, which shall be developed for such uses as needed,….”

I hope AMOYS have a better breeding season in 2018 under the new resource/ORV management than they did in 2017.

As do I, and if you embrace science, step back and look at the big picture statistically, you’ll see that it’s likely they will.

Devildog - 03-06-’18 15:16
pussycat

Devil Dodo,
Softbank just dropped $2.5 billion into GM to launch fully autonomous vehicles as a service. The DoD is now investing as much as it takes to ensure immediate adoption of fully autonomous vehicles within evey branch of the military The race is on. Internal combustion vehicles with
steering wheels will become as obsolete as 8 track players and black and white television broadcasting. The competion is fierce and global as the world rapidly introduces new solutions in transportation. Within a decade virtually no one will personally own a vehicle. Vehicles deaths will drop well over 99 percent. And insurance for those who
insist on driving will become absolutely unaffordable. Why you didn’t understand this coming, despite initial difficulties, is totally perplexing.

pussycat - 08-06-’18 18:52
Devildog

♪….Roll another one…..♫

♬….just liiiike the other one…♪

“Within a decade virtually no one will personally own a vehicle.”

Prediction FAIL!

The Future of Personal Vehicle Ownership

NADA commissioned a large-scale research project that included consumer focus groups and a national survey about the future of personal transportation. And what we found cuts against much of the “conventional wisdom.”

By Peter Welch, NADA President & CEO. April 9, 2018

It’s hard to attend an automotive conference these days without hearing about the end of personal vehicle ownership. According to so-called “conventional wisdom,” the proliferation of ride-hailing options like Uber and Lyft combined with autonomous vehicles (AVs) are destined to align and make the prospect of owing your own vehicle too inconvenient or too costly.

I get it. We’re living in exciting, changing times, and technology is normalizing things today that for decades weren’t even on anyone’s radar. We’re also living in an era that rewards bold predictions far more than rationality.

But as we all know, rationality still drives behavior. So the National Automobile Dealers Association (NADA) has been probing to find out what people really think about AVs, ride-hailing, car sharing and personal ownership. NADA commissioned a large-scale research project that included consumer focus groups and a national survey about the future of personal transportation. And what we found cuts against much of the “conventional wisdom.”

Here are the key findings:

Car owners have little, if any, interest in giving up their car keys.

Only 11 percent of car owners in our survey were interested in giving up their personal vehicles to move exclusively toward a ride-hailing service—even under the assumption that the service was widely accessible, safer and more affordable than human-operated vehicles. This was true among all demographics—age groups, geographic regions, and education and income levels.

Cars are convenient to own.

Silicon Valley and Wall Street have been pushing the false narrative that owning a car is a hassle—an expensive, unnecessary purchase that folks would rather do away with. The survey showed the complete opposite. It found that only 6.5 percent of car owners viewed car ownership as a hassle.

Millennials aren’t much different.

Talk to anyone on the topic of millennials and you’ll hear something about how they are a virtually different species of consumer. But millennials in our survey were not that different from the rest of consumers. Only 19 percent of them would give up car ownership for exclusive ridesharing. And most of those were the youngest, most urban and mostly single subset. But put a 30-year-old millennial in the suburbs with kids, and they start looking, thinking and acting just like the rest of us. Actually, millennials are buying new cars at a higher rate today than 10 years ago. Last year, the percentage of new-vehicle sales to consumers under the age of 35 was 19.3 percent vs. 16.6 percent in 2007.

People won’t trade time for money.

According to the U.S. Department of Transportation, the average U.S. household takes about 10 trips per day (stopping at the grocery store on the way home from work counts as two trips). The survey we commissioned found that the ride-hailing users on average waited nine minutes for each Uber or Lyft ride. Do the math—that’s a lot of waiting. And even if ride-hailing services save money, folks aren’t willing to trade their time for that savings. Half of the people surveyed reported that they’d need to save at least $50 per day to compensate for an extra hour of waiting for ride-hailing services. Under the rosiest scenarios, autonomous taxis might lower transportation costs—but nowhere near enough to compensate for the additional cost and inconvenience of waiting.

Bottom line

People want the freedom, flexibility, convenience and control that only vehicle ownership provides.

Fully 90 percent of car owners surveyed said that, at every moment, their car provides them the freedom and flexibility to go where they want, when they want. Respondents cited a number of reasons—including the ability to make multiple trips on an errand-run, take an impromptu trip to another city or state, drive unexpectedly to an emergency room and have the ability to leave an event earlier or later than planned—as key benefits of personal vehicle ownership. Such benefits would all disappear if they relied exclusively on ride-hailing.

The survey found that ride-hailing services provide some great benefits—especially in urban areas and in places where parking is an inconvenience. But if real consumers have anything to say, the future of transportation will be built upon the foundation of personally owned vehicles, whether human operated or autonomous. Consumers will continue to purchase their own vehicles and use ride-hailing services as a supplement whenever it’s more convenient. Consumers want both, not “either/or.”

In the future, ride-hailing services will supplement personal vehicle ownership, not supplant it.

Devildog - 15-06-’18 04:25
pussycat

Devil dodo,
You are so long-winded. Bottom line: money/power. Any questions?
Now tap into that fireball, hic, hic, hiccup.

pussycat - 18-06-’18 23:02
Devildog

Billfish,

I liked you and your sock-partner much better when you were posing as the “Cape Hatteras Recreational Alliance”.

Begone, troll, your days of “getting more than you asked for” are long gone.

Devildog - 21-06-’18 04:50
pussycat

Devil Dodo,
Are you losing your mind? I have never been Concerned or Cape Hatteras Recreational Alliance. I did publically change my name from Billfish to Pussycat in honor of the women’s march. Here’s another thing that flusters you. Offroaders and passengers are only 2% of visitorship, yet they drive on up to 40% of the beach. This inbalance must be corrected.

pussycat - 02-07-’18 01:55
Devildog

Billfish,

If you say so. “Concerned”‘s ability to get her hands on an unpublished NPS report speaks otherwise, and since only you two buy into the “2%” claptrap, it’s almost like you’re an old married couple or something.

Anyhoo, the only imbalance that needs correcting around here lies between your ears.

Tata!

Devildog - 02-07-’18 18:43
Salvo Jimmy

And you pussycat seem to be among the maybe 0.0000000000002% complaining about the so called 2%

Salvo Jimmy - 03-07-’18 01:34
pussycat

Devil Dodo and Salvo Jimmy,
I see you are both now resorting to made up numbers, falsehoods and personal attacks to obscure the truth. Here is the truth, by the numbers,
and as reported in the above blog and with numbers provided by the National Park Service. Offroaders and passengers are just 2% of visitorship, yet they drive on up to 40% of the beach. This inbalance must be corrected.

pussycat - 03-07-’18 18:52
Avon Resident

Pussycat
You keep beating this same drum to death. The “2%” that you keep complaining about are the only ones paying to go to the beach. The fees are used for access for everyone not just the for the “2%” who pay. There is trash collection at all ramps and lifeguard service in Buxton and Ocracoke. Do you pay for any of these services? I do with my yearly pass fee.

Avon Resident - 04-07-’18 23:48
pussycat

Avon Resident,
The 2 percent don’t pay for everyone to go to the beach. That is paid for by the citizenry of the United States of America through federal income tax. This sense of entitlement and importance from ORVers is far from correct. In fact, offroaders make up just two percent of visitorship yet drive/ride on up to 40 percent of beach.

pussycat - 05-07-’18 18:12
pussycat

Busiest June in 16 years…yet the point was closed all month. Just goes to show that the ORVers claim of economic impact related to beach driving was nothing but a con, a sham and pure self serving malarkey.
It really is amazing that two percent of visitorship once captured an island and proclaimed themselves as King of the Dune while they were nothing less than the little mouse that roared. We all got played while they were attacking our rangers, threating boycotts, posting obscene signage and being a PR nightmare to the detriment of virtually every business and their employees.

pussycat - 06-07-’18 18:39
Salvo Jimmy

Here is how ORV permit funds have been used recently

https://www.nps.gov/caha/learn/management/orv_permitsof.htm

Note: South Beach (Ramp 45), parking at Ramp 4, parking at Ramp 25. I did not go further back but walkway at Ramp 25 and ped acces just South of Ramp 32 also used the funds.

So the ORVers are paying an added “tax” that helps fund access for all and some of those benefitting are not paying any additional “tax”.

Seems to offset the 2/40 wanna be issue.

Salvo Jimmy - 07-07-’18 17:54
Devildog

Devil Dodo and Salvo Jimmy,
I see you are both now resorting to made up numbers, falsehoods and personal attacks to obscure the truth.

Hmmm….. Personal attacks, on a person you claim not to be?

Very telling, very telling indeed.

Even better, though, is the fact that you’ve been beating your same old “beach percentage” dead horse since you called yourself “Redfin” over on the OBC:

Posted By: Redfin – (Send PM)
Member Since: 2/17/2007
Location:
Total Posts: 402
Experience:

Date Posted: 4/8/2007 6:46 PM

I disagree with your analysis that Pea Island National Wildlife Refuge was stolen from CHNS. The refuge manager decides what are appropriate activities on the refugee as dictated by the enabling legislation. You can launch a boat on the sound side, fish swim, surf etc on the refuge beach.

Similarly I don’t think I have advocated for any action that should make you not want to come to CHNS. I don’t know what other areas you could recreate in that have more access than you have in this Park.
Currently you have 70% of the beach to drive on.

The local economy has been growing for years despite increasing ORV safety and resource closures. I think gas prices and severe weather related events have more to do with local economy than ORV management. If you do decide to do all your recreating in Cape Lookout and not here I am confident there will be new visitors to offset the economic loss.

Equally I am confident all visitors will have year round choices if they want to recreate in the National Park in close proximity with motorized vehicles.

Posted By: Redfin – (Send PM)
Member Since: 2/17/2007
Location:
Total Posts: 402
Experience:

Date Posted: 4/9/2007 8:28 AM

I have different opinion of allocation of recreational interests in CHNS.

It is not fine by me that you and the ORV lobby want to decide where and when pedestrians can recreate away from motorized vehicles in the National Seashore. My suggestion of you using Cape Lookout for ORV access didn’t sit well with you—I assumed it would not. Park visitors share the same feeling when you tell us where (Pea Island National Wildlife Refuge) to recreate on a beach without ORVs.

Your pontification of the difference between CHNS and Cape Lookout don’t seem to have a point about recreational conflict issues, opportunities for various types of access and experiences in CHNS. If anything CHNS by not being remote makes it even more necessary that CHNS be managed to accommodate park users with differing values. I welcome other users on Park beaches. I just don’t want to always recreate on a beach that has vehicles, ORV trails, parking lots with tail gate parties. It doesn’t mean that I don’t want other users to have that opportunity.

ORV users in CHNS have the majority of the beach, all the best fishing areas and remote areas to drive on.

11 years of the same old BS, and nothing to show for it! How did Einstein define insanity again?

The jig is up, fish-gutter. Time for you to move on and find a new outlet for your poutrage.

Devildog - 08-07-’18 20:12
Billfish

Pardon the interruption, but this is huge news. It is now proven that the Russian military attacked our nation and compromised our most vital infrastructure, our election system. The fake news and witch hunt rhetoric from Trump, his administration, FOX News and far-right congressional members have proven to be flat-out falsehoods. Twelve more federal indictments have been issued against the Russia’s military, which were in contact with Trump election officials. Unfortunately, the American people and Trump voters were all fooled. Those who now know the truth yet still support false rhetoric including witch hunt, fake news and the swamp will now be considered to be an opponent of democracy. Those who were temporarily fooled should be treated with the greatest level of forgiveness. Now we know the truth and have ABSOLUTE PROOF. God Bless the United States of America.

Billfish - 13-07-’18 21:01
billfish

More News: US Department of Justice reports that a US Congressional candidate colluded with Russia during election season and received
illegal election intelligence from the Russian military. Not sure who or what party, but now everyone in the Senate and House are looking over their shoulders and watching their words very carefully. Congress is officially wrapped up in this nightmare. FOX News is hedging like crazy. I sure hope it’s no one from NC. More indictments expected soon.

billfish - 13-07-’18 22:54
billfish

Looks like the Russian Military were involved in certain Florida, Pennsylvania and North Carolina races for the House of Representitives. If any candidates conspired to get intelligence from Guccifer 2.0 (the Russian Military), whether they knew it was Russia or not, they will go to federal prison for a very, very long time. Now we know why some House members have been calling the Russian investigation a witch hunt. This is an extraordinary time and a great danger to our democracy. With patience, the truth will come out.

billfish - 15-07-’18 03:17
Devildog

Redfin,

My, how badly your TDS has blinded you to the real news!

The only person who “colluded” with Russia was:

Former Rep. Joe Garcia (D), FLA

One of yours!!! You just make this stuff up. “Enemy of democracy” seems fitting here indeed.

Oh, and here’s the money quote that you also missed:

None of the indictments so far have accused the Trump campaign of collusion with Russia, though several former members of the campaign have been brought up on unrelated charges.

LOLOLOLOL!!!

Party on, Garth…….

Devildog - 16-07-’18 17:48
billfish

Devildog,
Nobody’s laughing now, are they? So when does your blind allegience become a basis for your accountability? When will Conservative patriots start drawing the line on the president? Here’s a hint: that was yesterday. Latest news: NRA connected with, welcomed in and supported a now known and just arrested Russian spy. The money trail will be very interesting, indeed.

billfish - 17-07-’18 20:47
Devildog

BWUHAHAHAHAAAAAA!!!!!!!!

(Snert) Oh Redfin, you’re the gift that keeps on deflecti….., er, giving!

Mueller digs up one of your own colluding, and you counter with a not even tangential tie to a second amendment organization.

Last time I checked, the NRA is not the Trump campaign.

And in case you missed it,…..

Brett Kavanaugh.

BOO!!!

Devildog - 18-07-’18 03:38




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